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The moments of the seminar held by the Association for Human Rights Legal Aid (AHRLA) at the press syndicate in Cairo, Sunday 4th May 2003. Introduction: In the context of the efforts done by the AHRLA aiming at prompting and strengthening human rights principals and values in the practical life and spreading human rights culture to the widest social range, the association held a discussion in press syndicate under the title "The National Council for Human Rights… Expectations and Ambitions" on Sunday 4th May 2003. The discussion aimed at creating and stimulating an open dialogue in which all the civil society organizations take part to discuss the National Democratic Party (NDP) initiation to establish a national council for human rights. The spokesmen and the participants aimed at specifying and identifying the measures and rules on which the National Council for Human Rights (NCHR) should be based. The discussion helped to shed light on the different attitudes of the civil society active powers towards the NDP initiation. It succeeded, at least, in revealing the reservations of the human rights organizations, which were discussed behind closed doors during informal meetings with government representatives, creating an atmosphere of clearance and publicity. The discussion helped to break the isolation chain the state wanted to put around the idea of establishing the NCHR and its jurisdictions. AHRLA, therefore, considers this discussion an important step towards a comprehensive vision of the council, its mandate and jurisdictions in which all parties concerned take part. AHRLA decided to publish this booklet to complete and support these efforts, particularly, with the fact that the discussion witnessed a representation of various civil society powers including political parties, organizations, legislative councils and syndicates. The physical absence of many human rights organizations was obvious, though some submitted important papers. Had they attended-some received several invitations-- the discussion would have become richer. That absence annoyed many participants, considering that human rights organizations are the most interested in the subject, and that they have shared in similar meetings, submitting their visions on it to the government through its mediators, and some even supported the governmental situation very early. The behavior of these organizations indicates their desire to be included in the future council at any price. That was mentioned in the speeches of several spokesmen, and that what we hope not to happen the next times, anticipating more serious contribution from the human rights organizations. In the light of the different attitudes towards the initiation of the NCHR expressed in the discussion, and what was published recently in the media about issuing a draft law of establishing the NCHR, the holding discussion focused on the fact that the forming of the council and its jurisdictions should be in the frame of the international measures set by the UN General Assembly decision concerning establishing national councils for human rights (see the appendixes). The importance of the council independence was stressed on, as it should not be a governmental institution. All the civil society powers must be represented in the council particularly human rights organizations. The council also must have a separate budget, the right to handle human rights complaints and to publish them. One of the council objectives must be to determine whether the existing legislation are in line with the human rights principals, in addition to many other jurisdiction contributing in prompting and strengthening human rights and spreading human rights culture. Finally, AHRLA hopes that the efforts done would be just a step on a long path, which needs us all to come together, towards prevailed democracy and human rights. The Association for Human Rights Legal Aid The opining speech Mr. Mahmoud Ali, manager of media sector (AHRLA) The Association for Human Rights Legal Aid is pleased to meet you in its holding discussion to discuss the initiation of the national council for human rights. Due to the importance of that matter we saw that it is equally important to invite all the civil society representatives to open a serious and rich discussion. We are trying to reach together to a united attitude concerning the nature of the intended established council and the nature of its intended missions and responsibilities. These missions and responsibilities have to be in the first place in line with the measures set by the UN General Assembly related to establishing national councils for Human Rights. We hereby meet a group of representatives of all the civil society institutions and organizations. Our discussion today is managed by Dr. Nabil Abdel Fattah the well-known strategic expert at Al-Ahram Center for Political and Strategic Studies. Refusing the foreigner change to the authority under the slogan of democracy Dr. Nabil Abdel Fattah, strategic expert at Al Ahram Center for Political and Strategic Studies This matter has a great importance, not only on the national level, but also on the regional level specially after the drastic changes happened in the last period, especially the American war against Iraq and the occupation. These changes aroused many problems concerning the future and development of the different Arab countries. One of these problems is the expected effect of the outer role on the political and structural development of the political systems. No doubt, many of the Arab dictatorial systems do not have real mechanisms to achieve neither the real peaceful change in authority, nor to achieve rotation of the authority between several political parties inside these societies. Specifically, these systems follow the system of varied parties, but actually restrained, like in Egypt, Tunisia and other Arab countries. There are real structural obstacles in the laws and systems in the Arab political systems that thwart democratic changes and authority rotation. So we can say that we refuse the imperial change made to the authority by force, as we also refuse the rule of one only political party, which gains absolute authority in the name of democracy, Arab nationalism or patriotism. Such expressions and acclaims can not get in line with the political social evolution in the Arab countries as in Iraq's case. Furthermore, some of the political systems are trying to do what is so called "political make up" establishing some fragile, unsubstantial institutions that aim at brightening their image outside. That was before the late changes made in the region. There are some cases, the Tunisian case, for example, related to establishing a national council for human rights. I hope that we pass the general rhetoric that focuses on a set of general sentences that can be applied to democratic evolution, political parties' problems, the rule of law and the systematic violations of human rights in Arab societies. At the same time I thought that it would be useeful if we conducted comparable studies on the Arab countries which established such a council. The focus of these studies must be the jurisdictions of the council, the applications, and the governmental performance, beside some analytical criticism in the field of human rights and the defending associations. These studies would have given us the practical real picture of these councils and their efficiency in the Arab countries. Doing this, we can approach correctly the Egyptian project with a serious critical vision. The Association for Human Rights Legal Aid: democracy in forming the council and a dialogue between the government and the civil society Mr. Mohamed Abdel Monem (chairman of The Association for Human Rights Legal Aid) There are many Arab experiences concerning the national councils for human rights such as the Tunisian experience. The origin of these councils is that it is a call from the interested agencies in the UN to the states to establish national councils for human rights. The mission of these councils is to give the states consult concerning improving human rights situations in the states, to prevent the violations of human rights and to raise the awareness of human rights principals and so on. It is obvious that the idea is the UN's idea or call to which the UN put some conditions or measures on the top of them: 1. The autonomy of these councils. These councils must give consults to the states in fields like education, it also gives consults to the police. The state has the right to assign some of the council members or to conduct election to choose them. 2. These councils must be formed of different groups, syndicates, communities and religious men. When this initiation was declared, we expressed clearly and frankly that if the state wants to establish a national council for human rights in a real way. It has to accept that the council must have the right to receive human rights complaints and announce them. Then it has to announce how the government is dealing with these complaints. Unfortunately, this demand was refused in a meeting with some officials, the matter stopped then. Recently, the subject was brought forth again, with the declaration that the council will have the above-mentioned right. That is considered a move on. But still there are some other requirements, such as, the intended council must have the right to monitor the places of custody, prisons and police stations holding cells. In this context, it seems that there are some problems in agreeing on these demands. In addition to the specific serious problem related to the government performance of forming the council constituted in the fact that the government did not start the dialogue with the civil society organizations openly, it obtained their opinions in an indirect way. So we have to declare our measures for forming such a council, as well as we have to start the dialogue with the state or the Ruling Party which initiated the idea. Hoping that it would be a real change in the Egyptian society in facing the current changes in the world, we have to have a more democratic and freer society. That initiation should be a turning point in the Human Rights Movement, even a starting point in the field, the state has to begin an open discussion about this subject in order not to have just a fragile council its only mission is to defend the state. There is no necessity for the council Just release public freedoms Dr. Ibrahim Dosouqy Abaza (Dean of political studies institution at Al-Wafd party) My speech will be short, I wished that the democratic changes would have been self-made and spontaneously, not for something happening outside. The initiation concerning establishing the national council for human rights launched recently does not show real intentions The council is a step on the way to freedoms… but not with the Emergency Law Mr. Saied Sheban (lawyer and member of the bar association board) In the beginning I would like to thank the association for human rights legal aid for holding such a discussion for it seems to be a good chance to discuss a very important and critical matter. The initiation of the policies committee at the NDP came about three main objectives, establishing the national council for human rights, canceling the law No 105/1980 and canceling the life prison punishment. The bar association sees these actions as appositive steps towards the improvement of human rights situation in Egypt. As the bar association is interested in all the kinds and generations of human rights, I would like to stress on the social and economic rights. Thus, poverty, health, lack of food, the right to work and the right to education are as important as the political rights, so the council shall be interested in these rights too, through all the civil society institutions. Talking about these rights without legislations to determine them is in vain. The main objective of this council shall be the reviewing of the legislations related to the economic, social and political rights. The council also has to be a real mediator between the Un system and the international organizations interested in human rights, not a branch of them. The council has to be the means of connection between the civil society institutions and the international systems; it has to be the reference of human rights in Egypt. If the council will be independent, it will be a real reference for Egypt. If it is controlled and to follow the administrative and executive authorities, it will not fulfill these responsibilities, and it will fail by the international institutions. Also the council has to play An essential role such as the monitoring role, that monitoring shall be comprehensive, it has to monitor police performance, the prisons and all the kinds of legal cases. Playing and cheating with the human rights card First cancel the military courts and realize the right to fair trial Mr. Adel Eid (lawyer and Member of Parliament) Allow me to say that when I read about the initiation of the policies committee in the newspapers to cancel the state security courts and to cancel the life prison punishment and to establish the national council for human rights, I was shocked. I was sure that these words are vague. These three initiations aim at misleading people, they wanted to play and cheat with the human rights card, using the common language in the international gatherings to show that they began to be interested in human rights, and that there are practical taken steps towards the improvement and development process. The surprise was because the initiations are extremely false; there is a lack of credibility in them. If we want to disclose human rights in Egypt, that will not be by canceling state security courts law No 105 nor the life prison punishment which is not in use any more nor establishing a national council for human rights. I consider this a disparagement of people. Firstly, the law No 105 has no problem, as the supreme and partial state security courts are composed of regular judges, the sentences of these courts can be appealed before the court of appeal before the court of cassation. There is no difference between the procedures taken in these courts and the procedures taken in any other regular court composed of regular judges as the constitution stipulates. The only problem is in the prosecution authorities during the investigations, as the General Prosecution gives both the examining magistrate and the renewal judge the right to renovate imprison and the right to control telephone calls and mail. It makes the case difficult for the lawyers during the examining period, but as soon as the trial period begins, it is generally like any other regular trial. The problem is constituted in two factors; the first is that the state security courts under the emergency law do not accept appeal; the sate security affairs bureau signs its sentences. Here, the citizen is faced by a real disrespect for his right to fair trial as he is judged only on two stages. The second factor is the military courts, which give the right to the president to commit civilian citizens to the military court no matter what are their charges according to article No 6 on the law No 25/1996 related to the military law. This is the real malfunction and the real disrespect for the human right to have a fair trial not before the state security court, in these courts they take the regular citizen from a regular court to a military one, in addition to the fact that the judges of the military court are not independent, not neutral and do not have impunity, and the sentences can not be appealed before the prosecution, and the sentences are ratified in the ratification bureau in the military rule department. This is the real malfunction that the initiations of the NDP did not note. Which is better to be canceled? The State Security Court, which is composed of regular judges, and its sentences can be appealed before the cassation court? Or the military courts that are not held in public, and its sentences are not appealed nor can be seen? As for the second part of the initiation, which is establishing the National Council for Human Rights, I would like to ask, is there a lack of councils? Is the crisis of Human Rights in Egypt because there is no national council for Human Rights to defend them? Or research them or whatever? Is it a matter of supervision or monitoring? Is torture in police stations and the news about torturing these young men in the state security headquarter arrested in the demonstrations will stop after establishing the National Council for Human Rights? Will torture stop when there is a national authority face it and hold the perpetrators responsible? Dr. Nabil Abdel Fattah: It is clear now that there are many different opinions. One stresses on the necessity of the consultative statues of these national councils and not to take the jurisdictions of the other institutions, and the necessity of campaigning for all the political civil rights. On the other side, there are opinions stressing on the fact that these councils are unnecessary, as there is a necessity for a democratic correctional vision particularly for the law malfunctions and the unchanged legislations philosophy in Egypt. All that stress on the necessity of continuing the discussion. Interjections: Mr. Mahmoud Abaza deputy chairman of Al Wafd Party: It is obvious that we got out of the discussion of the main subject and discussed the circumstances in which the initiations were launched, like it had been better if the Emergency law would have been canceled. I am afraid that the aim of establishing the National Council for Human Rights is to marginalize the role of human rights organizations, which were raised in the last years to defend human rights. Especially, these organizations do not satisfy the government for their defending the victims of the human rights violations committed by the state itself. There is no doubt that it is important to protect human rights principals under the extreme control of the state. I do not know why does the state insist on establishing national or supreme councils? Why does the state focus on such a hierarchy? There are many types of council for which I do not see any necessity, such as, the national council for woman, and the supreme council of press, etc. may this initiation be useful, may it be a beginning of a real democratic development. But the state's last experiments in addition to the achievements of the human rights organizations make us not in need for the national council for human rights. Human rights are well protected by the civil society and the social initiations not by the national governmental institutions. Chancellor/ Hamed el Gamal (former state council) I would like firstly to praise all the speeches were said which are a very good reason to continue the discussion and the opening dialogue about that issue. Them I would like to say that different people of the world like to change definitions and keep the contents or the content as it is, on the contrary the people of the developed countries like to do the contrary, to change the content and keep the names and the forms. What we have is that we rule with a constitution from the Sadat Era which is not democratic, I myself had shared in forming it, the other shred persons had quoted the headlines from the international declaration of human rights, meaning that we do not need the international treaties, so why have not these texts been applied? Because they do not want them to be applied. Looking at all the judicial, we find that all of them are following the Minister of Justice concerning promotions and budget. The judicial institutions are in the mercy of the supreme council of justice, I have been experiencing that myself. Yes, there are efforts to be independent, but all these efforts are in vain, because all the matter referred to the Minister of Justice, then how do we expect that the National Council for Human Rights will be independent? This is for the legislating authority, as for the judicial authority, lawyers know and see what happens during the investigations, so, and we all know that the executive authority is above all authorities. How can we expect that the executive authority will execute all these sentences? Even the officials are given the impunity in order not to be held responsible. The principal of responsibility is not applied. There is no report on the prisons conditions from the General Prosecution since 1952. No one can do that in a nation ruled by the marital law. It is obvious that we leave the root and hold the branch, may be this is meant to be. The parliament and the people's assembly need a comprehensive change. We need to reverse the idea of prison; here the prison is based on the idea of secrecy. While the prisons in the other countries are places of rehabilitation. Never mind the idea of prison, lets see about the state council rules which are not executed for example, the right of the detained person to see his family. Mr. Farouk El Eshary, reporter of the culture committee in the Nasirist Party. Thanks for the association, though the issue is so important, the origin of that very issue is much important and deserve discussing, the issue itself is much deeper. If we relate the General Assembly decision related to prompting human rights especially Article No (3) with what had been said before about the violations of Human Rights, we will deduce that the government is uncomfortable and it has to enhance its situation. Therefore, the initiation of the association to discuss the NDP initiation and the issue of Democracy is so important. We are here to discuss the democracy we want, not Collen Paul's Democracy. Anyhow, the draft law reveals that the National Council for Human Rights will follow the presidency and it consults. This is the refused vision, because it will not be independent, then it will not be able to protect Human Rights. As for the existing suggestions, we have to activate them. There will be National Council for Human Rights, but it must not be an alternative for the civil society institutions working in the field of human rights. We have to stress on the demands that the council should monitor the prisons and police stations, and it should spread out human rights culture in the whole society. It should also have its opinion in every law related to human rights principals. So all of us have to struggle to activate this council and make it not just a form, it has to be the institution that discusses the Egyptian government reports, it has to be composed of human rights activists, it has to follow the parliament, otherwise it wiuld be a public scandal. I hereby stress on the necessity of canceling the Emergency law not only canceling the law No 105. Dr. Nabil Abdel Fattah: It is obvious that Mr. Farouk is supporting the idea of establishing the council and activating it. Mr. Mohamed Farid Zakaria (a mkember of el shoura council) The truth is that we face a great responsibility before God. Since we contributed in establishing the Liberals Party (El Ahrar) our goal was to search for who could protect the constitution. The real problem is Democracy. The real question is who will establish the council? The answer will make a difference, especially if an institution that has no credibility for the citizens would establish the council. I do not know what is the meaning of a national council, nor how many national councils are there? Nor why it is named national councils not local council? We need to have a comprehensive vision and to present it in a frame that had credibility for the citizen. Dr. Nabil Abdel Fattah: It is necessary to discuss how to put our vision for the national council for human rights. Mr. Khaled Abou Kresha (member of par association board) We all share one point of view concerning human rights situation under the Emergency law and restrained parties. The matter may be discussed like if a thief had stolen my wallet and send me my identity card. It is not expected to thank him neither to send it back to him. These doubts are very natural when the National Democratic Party talks about the National Council for Human Rights. After all, Human Rights organizations made the system think about establishing National Council for Human Rights, but the problem is that there are no information concerning its forming, nor its jurisdictions. It is natural that the government is the responsible authority of establishing it, but is the state authorities interested in these matters? It is necessary to discuss the issue more deeply, but not to oppose just because the initiation is the NDP's. I would like to stress on the fact that we do no have information, or enough material to base our discussion on, and that we do need to continue the discussion relying on clear cut facts not just undefined words. Ms. Manal El Tieby (chairman of the Egyptian center for housing rights): Discussing the issue of the council turned to be just a decoration and just to talk about democracy. Frankly. I think that all human rights institutions and centers and even parties are also just for decoration, if the government does not want them (us), it will close them (us). I believe in the saying " if you can not take all, do not leave it all". Ironically enough that all Egyptian human rights reports to the international committees are laughing. We need to feel that the national council for human rights will understand what human rights mean, and understand also that there is a problem with the international human rights treaties being recognized as a part of the national laws. This particular problem needs an army of lawyers to activate these treaties, in spite that, no one moves. There is an advantage in the initiation, which is the national council for human rights will be a connector (mediator) between the governments and human rights organizations. It is enough to point at the fact that human rights organizations in Tunisia had hidden the UN human rights committee reports on Tunisia for the reputation of Tunisia. Mr. Rabie Rashed (head of lawyers committee in the collective Party) Firstly, allow me to praise Ms. Manal's words, but I have a notice that there should be a representative of the National Democratic Party attended with us, because the issue of human rights have to be discussed with all parties and groups. The NDP is not one bloc, and the Egyptian Judiciary had decided rules that considered stronger than any statement of political party. We demand human rights protection and the political bloc has to think in activating the constitution not changing it. I hereby call for opening a democratic dialogue between all communities and groups of society and the Popular Committee for Defending Democracy. I also would like to put it clear that the conflict between parties is not personal, it is a disagreement about practices. Mr. Moustafa El Bakry El Afifi (lawyer): The problem is that the concept of human rights in the whole world differs from the Egyptian concept of human rights, and the treatment in Egypt is not humanitarian, the evidence is that in all over Egypt people are treated with the policy of imposing the accomplished fact. Though we oppose the initiation, we know that it will be implemented, so we have to unite our efforts to ensure that it will be a real efficient council. one of its missions shall be to issue the "ministers judging law", we have to make sure that its members will be independent and indismissable, and the council itself must be in connection with the international authorities. The council may have an important role in several important issues, for example, the detention pending investigation, there might be an accused who spent 10 years in jail then the court decide the innocence, who could compensate that accused? The council has to cancel the detention pending investigation. Then I would like to ask by what law can we judge, every one issues laws, the council has to stop that. Dr. Nabil Abdel Fattah: The council is a consultative council has no authority Mr. Moustafa El Bakry El Afifi: The association for human rights legal aid had submitted the head of Alexandria Security to trial because the parliament cannot question one minister. Mr. Mohamed Abdel Aal (representative of the National Association for Human Rights) At some moments I imagined that the discussion is about the violations of human rights, I would like to stress on the importance of the civil society. The civil society rescued Palestine in a period there was no formal authority, the contrary happened in Iraq. If there were real actual civil society we would have discussed many issues like activating the civil associations law. But the participants here have no trust in the system, so we have to work on activating the council role, that is because the council will have more ability than one organization, parallel to this idea, we have to think in establishing peculiar council for human rights organizations, we have to be optimistic. Mr. Sied Shebaan: I would like to comment on Mr. Adel's words and to put it clear that we have to call for canceling the Emergency law in addition to canceling law No 105. Mr. Saied Abdel Hafez (lawyer and representative of the Egyptian Organization for Human Rights) Firstly, I would like to draw the attention to the absence of the representatives of human rights organizations. They did not attend because they do not agree on anything. As a representative of the EOHR, I declare that the EOHR is approving the idea of the council but we refuse the source of the initiation, just like the refusal of a singer for the bad reputation of the composer. The issue is ours but the base of the discussion has a political feature rather than human rights one. It seems that we discuss a matter we do not know about it anything. There must be a subjective criticism, not depending only on two pieces of news were published in the newspapers about the initiation. I think the rest of the organizations had not attended because of their fear not to be represented in the council. Human rights organizations have to declare their demands concerning the council clearly and realistically. Dr. Nabil Abdel Fattah: We have to do what we are able to do; it is not possible to do all in one moment. Dr. Ibrahim Dosouqy Abaza: While discussing human rights situation in Egypt and how to protect them, we have to put into consideration how to apply them. Human rights can not be protected by the national council for human rights but rather by a democratic system that respects freedom of expression, the right of every citizen to natural regular trial and the right to be treated in a human way and not to be tortured. These are factors of democracy that should be monitored by the civil society. But in a state of a comprehensive structure human rights cannot be protected. We have to fix the essential defect. Our main issue is Democracy. Participants in the discussion 1- counselor/ Mohamed Hamed El Gamal former head of the state council 2- Dr. Mahmoud Abaza deputy head of AlWafd Party 3- Dr. Hamdy El Sied` chief of medical syndicate, Member of Parliament and member at the policies committee in the NDP 4- Mohamed Farid Zakaria Head of Liberals Party and member of El Shoura Council 5- Farouk El Eshary Reporter of the cultural committee in the Nasirist Party. 6- Rabie Rashed head of defending freedoms committee in the Collective Party 7- Adel Eid lawyer and Member of Parliament 8- Saied Sheban lawyer and member in the bar association board 9- Khaled Abou Kresha lawyer and member in the bar association board 10- Dr. Nabil Abdel Fattah - strategic expert at Al Ahram center for the political and strategic studies 11- Dr. Ibrahim Dosouqy Abaza Dean of political studies institution at Al-Wafd party) 12- Dr.Abdel Mo'aty Baioumy Former Dean of religion Fundamentals College and Member of Parliament of the NDP 13- Dr. Essam El Erian Former Member of Parliament and one of the Muslim Brothers Leaders 14- Manal El Tieby chairman of the center for housing rights 15- Saied Abdel Hafez manager of the fieldwork unit at the Egyptian Organization for Human Rights 16- Mohamed Abdel A'al representative of the National Association for Human Rights Both Dr.Abdel Mo'aty Baioumy and Dr. Essam El Erian did not make their speeches due to their busy time and the discussion continuing to a late time. |